March 27th, 2009 | by Shelli Stevens |
Okay. So I confess. I was watching Oprah on Wednesday. Did anyone else see that episode? All about: Women Leaving Men for Other Women. It’s true, straight women were suddenly experiencing bi-sexual thoughts or just leaving their husbands for other women.
I was fascinated. Like close my laptop and stare at the tv fascinated. There was like this fitness trainer down in southern California that women everywhere were just going lusty for. I think she’s got her own reality show so that helps 
And then Oprah, or her guest speaker or something (yes obviously I’m fact driven here!) announced the percentage of women who had fantasized about being with another woman. And it was like 44% or something (again, don’t quote me, but it was in the 40 percentile!)
It seems almost trendy now days. You’ve got your female celebrities dating women, songs about kissing a girl, it’s just not as taboo as it used to be. And every now and then… you see it in a romance/erotic romance novel. A brief (or long!) scene where the heroine might experiment with another female. Or maybe she’s watching it.
So Oprah got my mind all fired up. And I’m coming to the Aphrodisia blog for your opinion. Here’s my question to you. A little bit of female/female or female/male/female action in a book. Is that something you just don’t want to see? Or are you in the corner of ‘bring it on!’ Tell me! How do you feel about it?
Shelli 
p.s. I received my cover flats for the Sexy Beast VII book I’m in with Kate Douglas and Anitra Lynn McLeod. What do you think of the cover?
I don’t mind coming across some F/F action when reading an erotic romance, as long as it makes sense and isn’t just kind of thrown in there for kicks. I have to say that I really don’t like F/F/M though. I guess because I’m kind of posessive, and could never, ever imagine sharing my guy. Now, M/F/M……I could totally get down with that
by Cheryl McInnis · March 27th, 2009 at 7:17 amFor me, if the heroine is genuinely attracted to the other woman, no problems. But if it’s some kind of performance to titillate the mens (a la the horrid song “I Kissed a Girl”) then I hate, hate, hate that. Genuine bisexuality/ lesbianism is honest and empowering and I don’t mind reading about that at all, as a straight woman. But the feeling that the woman is doing it to please a man leaves me feeling icky. But that’s ’cause I’m a big raging feminist
by Lucy Woodhull · March 27th, 2009 at 11:18 amFor me, it’s all about motivation and character. If it’s believable, then I don’t care who’s kissing who. Personally, I find F/F more believable than F/vampire, but that’s just me
But if it’s thrown in gratuitously – which I know is not something any of us Aphro writers would do! – then it doesn’t work for me. I think there’s a bit of a “hopping on a bandwagon” thing going on right now – like everyone was doing a while back with gay best friends.
And, let’s face it, there’s a big belief that men are turned on by this stuff, so if you want a guy to go to a chick flick, add a little girl-on-girl action, and he’ll be there. (Men can be so darned easy, can’t they?
)
by Susan Lyons · March 27th, 2009 at 11:19 amCheryl, and that’s just it. The thrown in part bugs me too. And, yes, m/f/m is HUGE!
Lucy, I agree it’s just all kinds of wrong if it’s used to get the men aroused. And I think you can see those coming a mile away.
Susan, lol that’s so true about bribing guys with the chick flicks. Or heck sitcoms nowadays. That’s what drives me crazy about movies/tv. Because those DO just seem thrown in for the men.
by Shelli Stevens · March 27th, 2009 at 11:23 amHey, I forgot to mention, the very first book I got published (e-pubbed), many many years ago, was a lesbian mystery. No, there’s no sex – it’s very sweet and as I recall I think maybe it ends with a kiss – but the heroine, a counselor, is definitely lesbian and so’s her lawyer love interest. It’s called Reality Check.
Out of curiosity, I just checked Amazon and hey, it’s available in Kindle format. How cool is that?
by Susan Lyons · March 27th, 2009 at 11:24 amhttp://www.amazon.com/Reality-Check/dp/B000JMKQ9O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238167427&sr=1-1
That’s awesome, Susan! I didn’t know that!
by Shelli Stevens · March 27th, 2009 at 11:34 amI had a female/female scene in The Duchess, Her Maid, The Groom and Their Lover–one character was bisexual, and infatuated with the duchess, and has an encounter with her. It’s through the duchess’ eyes; I decided she was almost entirely straight, hopefully providing a pov for readers who didn’t usually think about women in sexual contexts.
It was an interesting challenge–to me, more fun to write because there was no instant attraction wiping out all thought.
by Victoria Janssen · March 27th, 2009 at 11:39 am*puts on Ranty McRanty Hat*
SEe I don’t think kissing girls is all that new, it’s just more socially acceptable!
That said many epubs STILL won’t take “lesbian”/f-f sex/books because they say it doesn’t sell. Why? I don’t understand especially cause M/m is so hot right now–among hetero women no less.
I almost wonder, and said to someone this week as a matter of fact, if it’s acceptable to like M/m because they’re men and you’re a woman so obviously if you like M/m you’re not gay. BUT if you cop to liking/reading F/f then peeps might wonder about you and/or question your sexuality. And ZOMG you MUST be a lesbian if you want to read about girls but your sexuality is SAFE if you read M/m. (that said there are some readers I know like Jen The Ginger Kid who have NO desire to read F/f but love M/m).
I know….weird but i have no other explanation because I KNOW I’m not the only reader out there wanting some sexy F/f fiction. It’s why I’ve written it and why I’ll probably write more in the future.
It seems as if F/f sex is the last great frontier (more deviant fetishes notwithstanding).
For the record, I’ve kissed a girl and I like to think of sexuality as a spectrum not a black and white issue.
by Ames · March 27th, 2009 at 11:45 amPS For the record I’ve never gotten any negative feedback on the F/f in my stories.
by Ames · March 27th, 2009 at 11:47 amCheryl…….I can’t share either!
Lucy! Ohhhhhhh I HATE that song too!!
by Ames · March 27th, 2009 at 11:49 amI’m with Ames, it’s not a new thing at all. It’s just that now people are talking about it.
As for reading it in books, it never bothered me ten years ago, but now I tend to skim it cuz to be honest, not a lot f ‘new’ ways for it to happen. Well, there are new ways, bit noobdy’s being that daring. If you’ve read the SECRET THOUGHTS anthology from Samhina, I have a short story in it calle dUNKNOWN WANTON, that is female oriented.
ANd Beth Williamson had a novella that was all female female that was really good. Called WIDOWS WEEDS. She did a great job with it.
So, it all depends on the story, but I don’t find it a new thing at all.
by Sasha · March 27th, 2009 at 12:07 pmAmes, I like what you said about sexuality being a spectrum, not black/white.
A lesbian friend of mine once said something I found very interesting. She said, in order to feel sexually attracted to someone, she has to really connect emotionally with them, be able to talk to them and feel a sense of understanding, etc. etc. And she says, she never feels that same sense of connection and closeness with a man. It made me think about how we all enjoy hanging out with our girlfriends and chatting with them about anything and everything, and feeling understood. Whereas so many women say they just can’t communicate properly with men, and rarely feel understood. So, as my lesbian friend said, why would you want to do something so intimate as have sex with someone you can’t even have a proper, meaningful conversation with? I thought that was a very interesting perspective.
But then, I guess the other “argument” is that sexual attraction isn’t logical, and it’s the product of evolution. If a good percentage of our ancestors hadn’t been heterosexual, we wouldn’t be around today.
But now we have technology that allows for babies without sex, so hurray for us! I’m all for what I once heard the poet/songwriter Rod McKuen say: “It doesn’t matter who you love or how you love, but that you love.”
by Susan Lyons · March 27th, 2009 at 12:11 pmMy sister sent me an article recently that said that many women in their 40′s start having romantic feelings with other women and leave men. And they don’t know why that happens. From More magazine and mag for women over 40.
http://www.more.com/sex-dating/over-40-and-gay/?page=1
Heh, I only recently discovered in the last 2 years that I love reading f/f, f/f/m. And I’m as straight as you’re gonna get.
For me it’s not a fad like it is in the general population. I’ve come to really like reading the emotional intimacy that can happen when two chicks come together. Something IRL I never liked. I was always the girl who had way more guy friends and felt uncomfortable around lots of women.
I read a lot of f/f, whether bi or lesbian oriented and review it as well. Even started a blog with Kirsten Saell, who writes that type of story, for reviewing and discussing that kind of content in romance/erotica because of the neg stigma attached if you do cop to reading or liking it. Also it’s very hard to find really good f/f, or f/f/m due to being unpopular. So I scout around for it all over.
http://bi-curious-romancenovel-chat.blogspot.com/
What I hate is when an author puts a f/f scene in there just for titillation w/o any emotional connection. Even if it’s a light connection like two friends who are easy about doing that, but are not lesbian or two people who just experimented briefly, it’s OK for me. But for the guy’s pleasure. NO.
Susan– I’m curious to read your book. I’m currently reading a book Secrets and Sinswhich is about a lesbian police detective in a small town. No sex in this book either though.
by MB (Leah) · March 27th, 2009 at 12:16 pmActually, Jen doesn’t mind a bit of f/f, but she’s said it needs to be presented in a bisexual context rather than a lesbian one if it’s going to interest her. She’s a regular visitor of Loving Venus- Loving Mars, an opinion/review blog my bud Leah(MB) and I started to try to fill the void of f/f and m/f/f in ebooks. Unfortunately, there are even fewer romance ebooks focussing on female bisexuality than there are lesbian romances, and fewer still are done well.
My three published books all have some f/f or f/f/m. Can’t say I’m a fan of f/m/f–in my mind, that’s the male-centric, “two hot chicks seein’ to mah manly needs” kind of fantasy, and it just doesn’t appeal. I hate the idea of two women with no attraction to other women, and no other motivation than to turn some dude on. Or the idea that two women need a man to “finish them off” because without a man it’s not “real sex” (I’d also rather read–and write–m/m/f than m/f/m–if everyone’s not into everyone else, it’s just not my bag).
I think the greater percentage of women would fall into the bi or bi-curious category than lesbian, so I can understand why lesbian romance doesn’t necessarily sell as well as het or m/m. But het with a little bi-curious action, or full-on f/f/m menage, still face huge obstacles in getting the readership it deserves, a readership I honestly believe is out there.
I wouldn’t say that f/f has recently become more acceptable. Men have almost always controlled the production of the majority of sexual material out there, so there’s always been tons of f/f action to be found. It may be that female romance readers are uninterested in girl-on-girl(-on guy) because they assume it will be like Girls Gone Wild–all geared toward titillating men. And that’s a shame, because there is some good stuff out there that would appeal to women all along the Kinsey spectrum.
Yeah, it has to be consistent with character and plot, and it has to be non-exploitative. My first (m/f)and third (f/f/m) books feature a heroine (female hero, really) who is unashamedly bisexual, and she was an absolute joy to write.
I agree that there is a degree of “Oh noes! If I like to read f/f, I must be a lesbian!”, and there’s a lot of politics among the lesbian community about “picking sides”, so that switch-hitters like me are sometimes made to feel guilty or treasonous about not wanting to pitch men completely out the window. So many bisexual and bi-curious women may not be interested in reading lesbian romance at all–likewise for lesbian readers and f/f/m. And then there’s f/f romance, which is (in my mind, at least) subtly stylistically different from lesbian romance–the same way that m/m is sometimes different from gay romance.
Sorry to hijack your comments! But being an aficionado of the hot girl-on-girl action, I’m rather enthusiastic in my opinions.
by kirsten saell · March 27th, 2009 at 12:30 pmKirsten….you said it all SOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than I did!!!
by Ames · March 27th, 2009 at 12:39 pmVictoria, that sounds awesome! I really want to check that out now.
Amie, you’re right. It’s not new. I remember reading a Brava back in the day that had a F/F scene. And I do wonder about the m/m being so popular but not the f/f. Personally I’d prefer to read f/f.
Sasha, I’ve read yours Samhain one!
Susan, you nailed some of the same points Oprah discussed!
Kirsten, not hijacking at all! You have great points!
by Shelli Stevens · March 27th, 2009 at 1:07 pmAs a writer who’s written 2 books with F/M/F scenes I’m interested to read opinions on this. Also interested to note the % of women who’ve fantasized about another woman – and yet few admit to liking to read about it.
In my story Love Me, the heroine starts off her flirtation with another girl for the sole purpose of making her man jealous, getting his attention…and discovers an attraction to another woman – lesbian? No. Bi-sexual? Maybe. Bi-curious? Definitely.
In my next story, the same characters explore another threesome – this time it starts off with the intention of “pleasing her man” (and for those of you who can’t stand the idea of doing that, pleasing your man can be a huge turn-on and add to the heat!) and once again turns into an exploration of (as Ames put it) the “spectrum” of sexuality.
by Kelly Jamieson · March 27th, 2009 at 1:14 pmIt’s like watching the whole world go OH TWITTER–NEW SHINY (and get lots of media attn) when it’s not that new.
by Ames · March 27th, 2009 at 1:18 pmAgree…….and DisAgree! LOL I think this is one of those things that works in context but might be offputting in the abstract–yes? Pleasing your lover is Hot, otherwise what’s the point, but it’s a two-way street.
by Ames · March 27th, 2009 at 1:20 pmKelly, I’m curious too about all the responses!
Amie, I know, every where I look the media is like ‘oh twitter!’ LOL.
by Shelli Stevens · March 27th, 2009 at 1:32 pmLeah, I agree, the emotional intimacy is really fascinating to me. And I didn’t know about the article in More, though I did in the Oprah one. Wow. They’re really talking about it.
by Shelli Stevens · March 27th, 2009 at 1:44 pmPersonally, I love a good F/F scene, done in context. However, I find it more titallating if there is some feeling involved. Miss A finds herself falling in love with Miss B, despite the fact she is madly in love with Mr A, and can barely contain the desire to take her most gently.
I also find that I don’t mind a good F/m/f scene. I find them sexy as hell. Most men do find that to be there dream scene, but leave it to me to find a guy that has no desire for that. I know that is different, because every other man I ever knew thought it was the hottest thing ever. I don’t find the concept degrading to woman. It’s not always just for the man.
I can honestly say that if I to pick a read solely on who was doing who, my first pick, after M/F would be F/F.
And yes, in the gay community it is almost manditory to pick sides, no sitting on the fence. So, a woman who is Bi is almost treated with almost the same disdain a gay person sometimes is treated with in mainstream society. Then try explaining the concept of polyamorous. That really gets some strong reactions.
My very lesbian sister, who came out bravely when she was 13 and it wasn’t cool, wishes the world knew it wasn’t about sex. It’s about heart, and then desire. Just like in a straight relationship, if the trust isn’t there, the feeling, it just doesn’t work so good. It’s never as hot as it could be.
Just my two cents, from a very unpublished in fiction as of yet writer, who has spent way too much time considering all those different arrangements that might make a really hot scene. LOL
by Jeanette DeLoach-Anteola aka Jayda DeLaney · March 27th, 2009 at 1:56 pmOh, and I have to agree that the idea of turning my man on turns me on greatly, so that part of it works for me in F/M/F scene.
by Jeanette DeLoach-Anteola aka Jayda DeLaney · March 27th, 2009 at 2:00 pmAnd please forgive the horrible writing! My nyquil hasn’t worn off yet. lol
by Jeanette DeLoach-Anteola aka Jayda DeLaney · March 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pmKelly, I read your book and even though it was for the guy’s pleasure, I felt that how you wrote the f/f and then f/f/m scenes it showed that the two women were liking what was going on between themselves outside of the guy being there. Not cliched at all.
Mainly I think this was so also because the one character who was never with a woman actually enjoys it and is very curious about why she does, so it’s not like she had a complete disconnect with the other woman.
And the guy, even though turned on by his woman with another, still only had eyes for his woman. So that lessoned the whole feeling of the guy just getting off on two chicks.
I think two women going at each other for the male’s benefit can work and be nice to read if it turns out that both women get turned onto each other as well even if neither are bi or lesbian.
by MB (Leah) · March 27th, 2009 at 2:07 pmI guess I’m not really a fan of f/f. Its not something I look to buy. For me its isn’t something that turns me on or really interests me.
Now that being said I wouldn’t NOT try a book with f/f in it. If the story was something that really interested me then I would probably work myself up to wanting to read it.
I have read maybe one or two books with f/m/f in it and it was okay. In one book the additional female was sort of a game to play with the guy but I was a little put off when the hero had sex with the additional female and not the heroine. I think the problem for me was him having sex with her knowing that he was going to end up with the heroine even though it was the heroine that brought them all together.
I guess I wouldn’t want to share my man with another woman.
by Brandy W · March 27th, 2009 at 2:14 pmThanks Leah! It’s so nice when someone gets it!
by Kelly Jamieson · March 27th, 2009 at 2:29 pmThis may seem weird, but IRL, I think I’d have more of a problem sharing my woman with a man than I would with sharing my man with another woman. But I suppose that speaks to the “switch” thing that seems to kick in when I consider my role in a relationship–when I’m with a man, I want him to wear the pants, but if I was committed to a woman, I would definitely prefer to be on top. It’s the power dynamic, more than any jealousy I think, that would make it so uncomfortable for me to invite a man into an existing f/f relationship. Harder to have two tops than two bottoms, if you get my meaning.
by kirsten saell · March 27th, 2009 at 3:48 pmI personally don’t have any issues with f/f scenes as long as they are written well, aren’t gratuitous, and there’s a connection between the women. There are f/f scenes in all three of my Seduction Series books with Aphrodisia. The women have totally separate encounters from the men as part of the story and their own separate friendships, although their main HEA is with their hero. I’d never thought about it as “controversial” or etc, I just wrote it, and I’ve gotten TONS of emails and letters from women–of all sexual orientations–that they really enjoyed those scenes.
I think lots of women fantasize about having a sexual encounter with another woman, even if they never do it.
And I’m surprised by the small presses who said it didn’t sell well. I’ve seen a few lately asking for submissions of f/f romances. Huh. I think I can find those posts if anyone is looking for them…
Great post, Shelli!
Cassie
by Cassie Ryan · March 27th, 2009 at 4:16 pmhttp://www.cassieryan.com
I can sort of understand why as things stand now small presses have found sales of books with f/f a little flat. Readers wanting m/m have been driven to small presses (for availability) and epublishers (for anonymity) in their search for guy-on-guy, and a lot of those readers seem to be okay with het, but dead set against reading f/f. And f/f material has always been available to women–whether in the erotica/romance section of the bookstore or male-produced visual porn, and historically, the stigma in purchasing that kind of material has never been quite as strong as with m/m.
So if a large percentage of a small/epublisher’s consumers are those who have a general preference for one thing and an active dislike for another, you’re going to find sales for that second subgenre flat.
But. A few f/f scenes don’t seem to have hurt a lot of erotic romances from larger print publishers. I’m guessing that as ebooks and ereaders continue to go mainstream, and that mainstream readership slowly but surely warms to them, ebook sales will become less reflective of a niche m/m market, and therefore less heavily weighted toward m/m over f/f. In another few years, we could see the sales trends evening out, or even swiging in the other direction to fall more in line with what traditional publishers have experienced.
M/m romance may always be more popular than f/f romance (that is, not het romance with a few m/m or f/f scenes), because even some lesbians will read and write m/m, whereas f/f doesn’t seem to do anything for gay men except gross them out, and straight men in general are not interested in romance. But I have found that most women I’ve talked to (outside the ebook community) who enjoy het romance are like you, Shelli, in that if there’s going to be a same-sex scene in a het romance, they prefer f/f over m/m.
Me, I’m good with any kind of sex, as long as it’s hot and makes some kind of sense in context.
by kirsten saell · March 27th, 2009 at 7:15 pmYou know, my Samhain editor is totally open to f/f. She’s said her best selling book is a f/f/m (I’m pretty sure, I’d have to double check). But in that book most of the scenes are f/f. I’ve read it. It’s quite good!
by Shelli Stevens · March 27th, 2009 at 8:16 pmI’ve written a girl/girl scene and no, my heroine wasn’t a lesbian but she was of the mindset that sometimes, some things are beyond gender. Pain and Pleasure are two of those things.
by Emma · March 27th, 2009 at 10:10 pmSapphire Blue Publishing is also open to f/f books.
by Cassie Ryan · March 27th, 2009 at 10:38 pmThat’s one of the reasons I chose Samhain. My editor is also very open to it–all three of mine and at least one by another author have some f/f of f/f/m. I totally want to know which book you’re talking about! If it’s La Bonne, I have to completely concur–it’s a splendid book, one of my fave f/f/m books ever.
by kirsten saell · March 27th, 2009 at 11:48 pmLOL, Emma about pain!
Kirsten, it IS La Bonne! Laurie’s my editor over there!
by Shelli Stevens · March 27th, 2009 at 11:51 pmHi Shelli! So great to see you and so much to look forward to, congrats. Love the BEAST cover too!
I don’t mind a little f/f within the book. I don’t come around them much except for usually small scenes within the book. It various and more about the the story is and relationship is.
Congrats again, looking forward to your Aphrodisias!
by Caffey · March 28th, 2009 at 1:11 amHi, Caffey! You’re so sweet! Thanks for coming by! And you’re right, I don’t see them much in books. Though maybe I’m looking in the wrong books
by Shelli Stevens · March 28th, 2009 at 1:16 am